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Episode 8 – Liveyon Pure Cast – Umbilical VS. Bone marrow Stem Cells
Dr. Alan Gaveck: Welcome back everybody to the Liveyon Pure Cast Podcast. I’m Dr. Alan Gaveck, Director
of Medical Education and Clinical Application, and of course, John Kosolcharoen, CEO
and founder of Liveyon. Today we’re very fortunate. We have a couple pretty cool
guests with us, Dr. Margaret Coutts, Chief Scientific Officer for Liveyon, Liveyon
Labs, and Dr. Rafael Gonzales, very well known PhD and stem cell expert in the field.
Dr. Margaret C.: Thank you.
Dr. Rafael G.: Hi, thank you guys for having us.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: Thanks for joining us today. We got to talk on the last podcast a little bit, and we
had you guys on talking about cells and cell viability and cell counts. And a few
things came up about umbilical cord stem cells being more naïve versus maybe a bone
marrow stem cells. I wanted to have an entire podcast about the big differences
between umbilical cord stem cells and BMAC stem cells.
There’s kind of two sides of the fence there. There’s a lot of orthopedic surgeons out
there still doing bone marrow procedures. It was a great, great discovery many years
ago, but now with some of the new technology, cord blood has kinda hit the market. And
I know Rafael you’ve done extensive work in the BMAC space. My first question is
what’s the big difference between stem cells derived from the umbilical cord blood and
stem cells derived from a bone marrow aspirate concentrate, which is basically the
same stem cell or cell populations, but what’s the big difference between the two
Dr. Rafael G.: One is old and one is young. That’s basically what it boils down to. It’s like a young
baby skin versus an older individual’s skin the way it looks. And even in culture, you
can see this, the way it looks and the way it works. And if you consider …
Individuals that are having these procedures done are having these procedures done and
getting bone marrow extracted. And they’re older already, and there’s something
transpiring in the body that they need to have this done whether they’re 40, 50. I
mean 40 is relatively young to have to do bone marrow extraction. And get a knee done
or some kind of orthopedic done. You have normally some form of inherent issue or some
form of inflammatory component. Even if you have osteoarthritis, you have some kind of
inflammatory component going on in your body that’s actually caused that.Pain in
general, a lot of these people might have other issues, diabetes, who knows what, that
are having these things done. Cells age as we age and we know this. If you think about
it when you’re born –
Dr. Margaret C.: Stem cells age.
Dr. Rafael G.: And stem cells age quite a bit too. And the frequency that you actually have is a lot
less as you age. We know according to the scientific literature, during fetal
development about 1 in 10,000 MSCs. And when you get to the age of about 40, you’re
talking about 1 in 250,000 cells which is frequency of .000025%. Did I get the zeroes
Dr. Alan Gaveck: Yeah. A lot of zeroes.
Dr. Margaret C.: But it’s the quality and the quantity of stem cells has decreased. We all have stem
cells and your skin looks different as you age. My hair gets replaced but now it’s
gray. I mean I still have hair stem cells but they’re not the same as they used to be.
And just so you live your life … There’s environmental effects. We have pollutants.
We have ultraviolet light from the sun. We accumulate DNA damage throughout our life.
So cord blood is day zero.
Dr. Rafael G.: Yup, it’s as young as it gets.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: If you’re otherwise healthy, young, athlete. 20s, 30s, no other disease process
Dr. Rafael G.: It’s still a lot older. Even if you look at it in culture, you can look at size
differences of cells. One cell from another cell, the older cell is larger and it’s
not as … I give talks, and when I give talks, I show these pictures all the time of
an umbilical cord MSC versus a 40-year-old bone marrow MSC at the same exact passage,
and it’s crazy the difference the way it looks. One is so much nicer looking than the
other one. It’s because the other one’s age and in many cases these cells are also
senesce. They’re older. They don’t function correctly. They don’t secret the right
things, and there’s an abundance of data out there that actually demonstrates this.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: I saw Margaret put together a heat map for the presentation we did to the minister of
health in Morocco, and it was a nice cytokine panel with a list of all the different
proteins and cytokines. And it actually showed … Margaret do you remember that-
Dr. Rafael G.: Proteoomic heat map.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: The proteoomic heat map.
Dr. Margaret C.: The proteins that the cell secretes are different, and the abundance of the secretions
are different too. Another big difference between bone marrow and cord blood is
there’s a surgical procedure to extract the cord blood which can be … It adds a few
hours onto the procedure, and it can be uncomfortable or painful for the patient.
Dr. Rafael G.: Yeah, I know. I had it done.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: I did too. It was … Adipose was actually more painful for me.
Dr. Rafael G.: I agree on that one too.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: The bone marrow procedure definitely was not pleasant versus if when I got my
procedure done, had there have been cord blood cells readily available, I would have
easily gone that route.
Dr. Margaret C.: And if you look used flow cytometry or one of these other techniques, the various stem
cells are almost undetectable in adult blood.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: I’ve read some reports, and I don’t even want to call it a publication. But some of
the news things that are out there that hit the internet that cells from BMAC, they’re
just way more, way better compared to blood. When you’re drawing out the blood from a
BMAC procedure, you just have much better cell source or much better MSC count. But
that’s not really true because from what I’m hearing from you, as you get older the
stem cells in your body decrease. The amount of them decrease. Tell me a little bit
Dr. Rafael G.: Like we said, the frequency of it is, in a 40-year-old, it’s a 1 in 250,000 in that
range. And if you did the math and somebody took out, for instance, the standard is 50
c’s of BMAC I think what they normally use. That sort of equates to maybe 1,000 MSCs
if that, 2,000 MSCs. It’s in that range if you’re looking at 1 to 250,000. If they did
actually a really good prep, it’s not that much. But the most important aspect of it
is that it’s cells that are your age. They’re 40-years-old. When we multiply out MSCs,
in a 40-year-old we get 20 to 25 population doublings. When we do MSCs from cord
tissue, cord blood, we can get 80, 90 population doublings on these cells. It’s crazy.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: And I guess what’s interesting is your basic person that’s going in to have a stem
cell procedure is not usually 20, 30, or 40-years-old. They usually have
osteoarthritis or RA, and there’s more like 60, 70, or 80. That just compounds the
degradation of that product.
Dr. Rafael G.: Agreed, yes. Absolutely.
Dr. Margaret C.: Can you detect certain stem cells markers like CD34, the hematopoietic stem cell
marker in bone marrow.
Dr. Rafael G.: In that age you can, absolutely. But the frequency is so low-
Dr. Margaret C.: It’s really low.
Dr. Rafael G.: And you’re talking about less than-
Dr. Margaret C.: Way less than 1%
Dr. Rafael G.: Way less than 1% of these.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: It’s basically using a younger product. A nice, immature, naïve product that is full
of vim and vigor.
Dr. Rafael G.: Absolutely. And secreting all those factors that’s necessary for development and for
living long, healthy life. Remember when you were young? You fell down. You cut your
knee. You just got up and took off running again. Remember when you were 40, you fell
down. That just happened to me a couple of days ago. I wasn’t 40; I was 50. And I fell
down, and it took a lot longer to recover.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: I don’t even remember 40. Don’t even remember 40. Hey, thank you Dr. Margaret Coutts,
Dr. Rafael Gonzales. It’s always great to have you on to really give us some clarity
from the scientific world where you can explain it in ways that we can’t do. Thank you
Dr. Rafael G.: Yeah, thank you very much.
John Kosolcharoen: Thank you both. Have a great evening.
Dr. Margaret C.: Thank you.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: Alright everybody. Hope you enjoyed that. Always fun to talk to Margaret and Rafael.
They always have a ton of information.
John Kosolcharoen: Yeah, they do.
Dr. Alan Gaveck: But, we’ll see you next time. Thanks.